Análise da Palestra sobre Metodologias Educacionais Inovadoras

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Texto extraído do video Open Univesp l Grisha Liebel

Olá, seja muito bem-vindos ao universo e hoje nós temos um momento muito especial, mas antes de eu falar sobre o que vai acontecer, vou fazer uma breve áudio de inscrição
Eu tenho aqui na minha frente as câmeras, os microfones, toda a equipe técnica da nossa universidade TV, eu sou uma mulher branca, alta com os cabelos encaracolados com algumas mestras um pouco mais claras, eu estou de tênis, calça preta, uma blusa preta e um blaise é claro
E aqui ao meu lado esquerdo e atrás de mim a gente tem toda a equipe da universidade, centadinho bem do meu lado esquerdo, a gente tem o professor Marcos Bójez, que é o presidente da universidade, tá? E depois todo o nosso time
Bom, agora que eu já fiz a áudio de inscrição, vamos falar sobre um pouquinho que vai acontecer nessa nossa dinâmica hoje, nós temos o prazer de falar aqui com o professor pesquisador Grisha Líbel da Universidade Raikia Vitt, right correct? Que fica na Islandia e nós vamos fazer uma dinâmica aqui a seguinte, ele vai falar em inglês, nós vamos interagir com ele também, aí nós teremos toda a parte de tradução e legendagem, ele vai contar um pouquinho sobre a experiência dele, sobre as pesquisas e o trabalho e sobre, falarmos também um pouquinho sobre essa nossa movimentação ao universo internacional
Pois é, então vamos começar, Are you ready Grisha? Ah, I think so, yeah
Ok, so, first of all, thank you so much for being here with us, ok? And I know that you understand a little bit of Portuguese, you speak Spanish and everything, so now it's up to you, so we are eager over here to see what you have to show us
Thank you so much
Let's see what I'll show you then
Ok, thank you
Well, welcome
As you see, I'm just having a white screen, I'll draw a little bit and I'll just talk about three different topics, that's what we discussed beforehand and these are topics that are primarily in education but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll do research on them, I'll use them in my classrooms so it's really a mix of different things and it's essentially three different things I'll be talking about and some of them are a bit connected and a lot of them are not really, the first one is on the topic of project based learning and you see that my handwriting is not fantastic, it's a lot worse than my English, so how about using projects in the classroom in different courses? The other topic is about teaching in a team, so in contrast to the classical lectures where you have one person giving courses, giving lectures with multiple people and how you can do that in a, in a good way and we have both used this in the classroom in the past but we've also done some research on the topic and then finally I'll talk a bit about work that I'm actually mainly at the moment doing on neurodiversity so dealing with students that have different cognitive function and how to include them maybe how to better use their strengths and so on
On the last topic I think I have to say that as I said this is ongoing work so there's a good chance that might be some in the room that I actually better at that than I am so it's really just an insight on what I'm doing and please interrupt me whenever you feel like, if there are any questions, this is not, I'm not only here to talk all the time so go ahead if you have any questions
So project-based learning, the first topic is something that we have been using, I have personally been using for over 10 years now, it's become very, very popular in Europe in the US in different universities but I also have to say that it's not like everyone uses it everywhere, that's definitely not the case so we have a lot of these traditional lectures where 300 students, 400 students and there's just someone lecturing but what we very often want to do is we want to have groups of students in many cases that somehow work together, they work together on one problem and the reason why we want to do that is that is pretty much the reality in whatever you do afterwards, there are very little, very few professions left where you are alone and that's why we want to expose students to the real world and we put them in different groups and there are of course there are lots of different ways, methods of doing this, I'll just since we don't have, I could speak 90 minutes about just this but just to talk a bit about how I usually approach this
So usually I start with either I start with a very good idea I have so I might have an idea for a project on teaching a class for example on software projects and I have an idea this is what I want to do I think this would be a really nice project to do in a group or I start from what we call the learning outcomes so thinking about what do I have to teach the students and how can I put that into the project so usually I come from one of these two sites and try to figure out what exactly is it that I try to teach the students what should they be doing in a project and based on these different things based on the idea I'm having based on the learning I try to design what exactly the students should be doing and much more important what the students should not be doing and for those of you here or the ones watching this I think the biggest problem that I see when teachers do project based learning for the first time is that they go too far into the realistic corner so they say we do something very realistic and you throw all the difficult things at them at the same time and the students are just very confused so usually you have to have a good idea you have to have an idea what students want to learn and then you need to be very careful how you control everything else so just as an example I'm teaching classes on software engineering and I'm teaching the students for example different methods to do that I teach them things like how to estimate how how they can plan ahead how long things will take and so on what I don't want to teach them in my class is a lot about programming because there are other classes for example where they learn programming where they maybe learn very detailed things that's not part of my class so my project usually is very restrictive on how much time they should spend programming what other teachers what I've seen what others do is very often that is say let's do a real software project and then all the students do is programming that's all they focus on but it's actually not at all what I want them to learn so I think you know if I summarize in five minutes if you want to do project based learning what to look at is what should the students learn but in particular much more important what should they not learn what do you need to take away so that the things don't go too far in one direction so I think this is really the balance and then the other thing is a lot of us teachers educators we like our traditional lectures because we have a lot of control over what is happening we can design exactly what's happening we can design all the assignments in project based learning you should expect that you have some kind of iterations you should expect some kind of chaos all right the pan is stopping you should expect that the first round things go horribly wrong and you'll have to do it again and you'll have changes so what I often do I do this because my class is on on software and this is how software is developed but usually I try to do some kind of iterative work so the students work for two weeks they deliver something then they work for two weeks and so on and the great thing about this framework is well it fits for the software context but also it allows the students to make mistakes they can learn from it they can do things again it's not the classical idea where you do one assignment then you go to the next topic forget all about the first one but there should be some kind of repetition and as a teacher this means you also have a chance to fix things you realize the first two weeks something is horribly wrong and then you fix it in the next round or you make it slightly better but in terms of mindset you need to go a bit away from the idea that everything will be great the first time it will not and that's okay that's also part of here the the real world right things are not always ideal just to sum this up of course this is a very quick run through but we have we have done this in a lot of different courses we have done this also a lot with with companies for example that they come in and support us and give us problems or talk to the students so it's a very flexible way it's also something that has been done internationally between universities that students work with students from other countries because again many projects we have at the moment in software but also in construction in other areas are international so it's part of the real experience to actually talk to different people and have different backgrounds yes the question in terms of time yeah how long does it take when you start from the beginning up to the end a new project for me to design over the students to do the whole thing okay when they let's let's for you to design okay but then when they start because we have your preparation and then you have the class like they like this the project itself I would say it depends on how experienced you are in doing that if you do it the first time it will take you a long a long time to prepare I think if I do a project in a topic that I'm very familiar with I can easily set that up in two weeks okay so that's not I don't think the preparations are much longer than for having assignments or an exam it's similar things okay and then for students the idea is usually that it should be a prolonged time because again that's more realistic okay the other extreme is putting people in a room for an exam for 40 minutes or so okay so it should be prolonged in my case I usually do 10 weeks okay because the our term is 12 weeks okay so there's a little bit of time in the beginning there's a bit in the end and then there's 10 weeks of project work okay yeah but I think you can do this very different I know that for example in the UK they have these capstone projects that run an entire year okay so you know you can do this probably from four weeks or you can even do very many for around 22 weeks right it's yeah that's what we do that's why I asked you do because we can do something shorter or longer yeah and how many hours per week study in our case the students take four courses in parallel let's see time studies okay so they are somewhere to 10 to 12 hours per course per week okay and then in my class there are some hours for lecturing or things like that so I would expect they spend somewhere between five to eight hours a week on the project okay five to eight hours a week if they spend the time they should okay thank you always the question any any more questions on the project based part I think there are a lot of there a lot of really good okay I'm a question here yeah in Brazil do you understand I was too that's it okay just go if you don't you ask me okay I'll have to go there in Brazil we have a more traditional cultural culture and some students of this autonomy or this need to study so long without having a certain resistance hmm how do you do to break this within these 20 weeks we go through the way of not how do you read that in that pool of students 10 students 8 students 2 3 that do not develop correctly project how do you come back to rescue these students so it's this is a mix also in Germany so for example I'm from Germany originally we have well this is now 15 years ago I don't know how it's looking now but 15 years ago pretty much all of my courses were traditional I was sitting in the lecture hall I was listening and then I was doing an assignment at home and I've seen similar things for example in Spain and in Portugal I think it's one thing is actually just doing it I think you would you'd be surprised how how adaptable a lot of the the younger students are and the other thing is well maybe calling it scaffolding and this is something in the universe context that might be tricky that they might need a lot of support in the beginning to get going that is just you know a little bit of push there is a teacher or there's someone that says I'll have you worked on this maybe working with with deliverables or things they have to do that's instead of just saying well now you're free go ahead you have certain things that they have to hand in or present or so and this is of course a problem if you have lots and lots of students how exactly to do that but I think that those kind of things you need to work with and it's very similar if you think about industrial projects you also in a lot of cases it's not just like okay in three years you delivered a building but there are things in between right and that's maybe the way for some people to to make companies work I think it's similar with students but it's certainly not easy when you have very large courses I can see that okay let's go to the other side of the question but with the majority of these students they prefer this kind of of teaching you know do you think they like this how they generally I think most students like it yes my own view since most of my education was in Germany and then I came to Sweden where we did this model pretty much all of the time I think a mix is good as I said in the beginning it's not like you have to do this in every single course I think there are courses and not 100% sure how I would do this in a class on calculus for example so there are cases where traditional lecturing might make a lot of sense or maybe a few projects there are cases like software development where it's really important to have these kind of experiences so I think the easy answer is always it depends I think you need a mix of these and students are different the majority likes these I would say yeah how do you evaluate the students like they have to deliver something or yeah we do let's use a different slide for that I usually use rubric based evaluation so they're different kind of criteria they have to fulfill and usually this is quite a mix some of these have levels that talk about I don't know deliver something deliver for example a plan for your project deliver I don't know set up some set up some kind of software write tests for your software again this is now in the software context and then some of these checks are just have they done it or not is it there is it not there very basic others can be a bit more qualitative so for example well they have delivered tests for the software and you know they're covering this much of the code or so so you can have some assessments that are maybe more quantitative or more precise and others are more pass fail and usually for each of these iterations that I have shown you for each of these little blocks here I I have one of these rubrics that said this is what you have to deliver and this is roughly how I will grade you my experience is that less is more so again a typical reaction when you come from classical lecturing is that you try to be overly precise that you go okay I have to grade them exactly on 0 to 100 percent and how exactly do that what I usually do is I try to be very open and for me it's not the grading on the project is not the most important thing there should be some kind of grading but it's not I don't care that it's very precise it's more about making sure they go through it and they have the experience rather than very being very very precise in the grading and again that's why you need to have a mix some courses maybe you need to be more precise in my course I have the project but I also have an exam at the end so I can check them on some other things but the project you know I try to let go a little bit and say I make sure everyone works but I don't make sure everything has to be perfect or graded yeah I have a question how many students do you usually deal with I have done these kind of courses from 20 to 250 students 200 yeah 250 I've courses with 300 tell us a little bit about it how is to do this with 200 students I'm curious yes so in the courses with 200 students I have a few TAs that help me a few assistants but we're talking five if it's not 20 or so it's five people what I do is I have a lot of these kind of things I have a lot of checkpoints that just is it there is it not there yes no very easy to grade very quick so I try to reduce the effort there I also try since this is a class on on software development we use a lot of electronic tools where I can see if a student has delivered something or not so that in case there are problems in the group for example the group complains that someone is not working I can actually check the other thing I'm using which I haven't discussed before is peer evaluation so the students in the group they need to assess whether the others have delivered things and whether it was okay whether they have talked to each other and so on so that the effort is not all on us for for evaluating and then in person we actually only have one meeting per week where where my TAs meet the different groups and it's they they play the role they play a bit the manager or customer role they come in now and then and say okay how's the progress what do you do for next week and so on so that's that's how we deal with 200 students I mean these classes are really really nice when you have 20 students and you can do it all yourself but it is possible to scale this to some extent I think you need to you need to let go more of the grading and make sure there are things that are very easy to grade or even automatic that's how you can do that with so many students one more question how many people for each group five to nine that's great thank you it's almost like hours yeah yeah so yes very similar yeah yeah it's it is and it is a fairly international way of doing things I think I've seen very similar classes yeah yeah the questions were about these students but I have a question about the instructors yes because when an instructor starts working with peer instruction or project project based learning or other actual learning techniques flip the classroom I believe it's difficult for the instructors to change the way yes he teaches because the workload is great yeah and the traditional lecture is in his head so he he must change the way yes so we have a suggestion how to change the mind of the instructor to use this kind of techniques it's it's very good that you ask this because that's my next topic okay so I'll just go there are several ways but one of them that I personally have worked with as a PhD student actually not as a professor so I'm a bit on the other side is team teaching as a way of changing things so I'll just jump over there if you still have the question we can talk about it again later but I think it's definitely one way of of addressing things so what we have done in certain classes and I'll talk more about that is to teach in the classroom so we're standing in the classroom why can't I not draw here with two people okay the legs are disappearing again that's fine and we have two people talking together at the same time sometimes across each other why do we do this the reason we do this is we have certain classes for example I had classes on on software modeling where we draw diagrams we for example design our systems how they are connected and things like that and this is a typical example of a topic where there is usually not a lot of feedback when you program the computer tells you if it works or not in some other cases if you maybe you know if you have an engineering class where you can do simulation the computer tells you whether it's okay or not in math you sometimes have that in a lot of topics like this one you draw something you can always draw something it's not a problem so how do I know whether it's good or not good it's a very difficult discussion and a lot of people say this is actually more like art it's it's an art of designing software it's not a it's not a science and this kind of model of having multiple people that actually discuss what is going on in the class is a bit closer to what you have in the past in in the apprenticeships so for example if you learn to paint you do that by going into a workshop and looking at what the master is doing and then you do something and the master is commenting on okay this is maybe not the way of doing it and this is exactly what we have here we have one teacher that is basically the the professor or the the more experienced person and we have someone who is a bit more like the apprentice and the professor starts pretty much doing a lecture it's okay we do this this is the topic for today and the apprentice pretty much plays the student that has no idea what's going on and starts asking question starts going okay what did you do now why did you draw a line here does this make sense and they start having a discussion it's not necessarily the professor always telling them ah this is how it works this is how I draw but they start having really a discussion how you could do it differently and so on and the reason we do this is for a lot of different ways first the apprentice down here is pretty much playing the role of the students and a lot of times he or she is actually asking questions that a lot of the students have in their hands and maybe they don't want to ask or you know they think they're stupid and everyone knows it so a lot of the questions that that person asks are actually the things that maybe should be discussed and the professor of course makes mistakes as well so maybe that's when the other person notices and also it shows through the discussion you you find a way to discuss alternatives because otherwise especially when it's when it's an art when it's not very exact the students might get the impression that however the professor does it is exactly the one way to do it there's no other option so by discussing this you get a bit of a broader picture you get alternatives and you actually verbalize what's going on in the head because if I'm doing math on the board there's a lot going on in my head that maybe I'm not telling I'm not saying and maybe it's even automatic so by having a discussion in the classroom things become clearer um um this is this this helps a lot with understanding in the class and some students really like it some absolutely hate it because they really like the idea that there's one way of solving things and why do we have to have a discussion but it also helps and this is now where we get into how to change the the mindset maybe the discussions usually continue outside of the class as well between these two people so what we did in our setup is that we had the professor who is responsible for the course and the we had a PhD student who was helping who was like a TA in the course and usually when we were done in class we kept discussing well maybe we should be explaining this in a different way maybe we can do this kind of assignment and our view on this was that it helps a lot with this kind of being stuck in one way of teaching it's not only about the way of teaching whether we do lectures or projects it's also what I think most of us teachers have seen when we teach a course three four times it becomes very hard to change anything and that's you know if if this person here the apprentice if they are a little bit either very open or they're a bit more experienced they start questioning things so it should be really be doing this in that way is that a good idea maybe we should change it so this has originally this is kind of happened accidentally we we just we started doing this with two people that were just discussing they like to discuss a lot but our experience is really that this helps a lot with developing courses over time and this might also be a good way for for example developing project courses to actually put for example one person in the room who is more the expert on the topic and maybe someone else who is a bit more experienced with projects and you start discussing things I think the important thing about this topic is that there is this discussion going on there are there is one setup of doing team teaching where where it means one person is doing one lecture and the other person is doing another lecture you often for example see that in medicine you have a medicine course and one person is doing the lecture on cardiology the other one is doing it on the nervous system is different areas that's good for other reasons but this setup that that we are using is really on teaching everything together and discussing the course together so that the quality becomes better overall so that's an approach we have used again this is nothing that works in every single class yeah it might work for some topics and I don't know whether it answers your question but I think it's one way that can actually help changing people a bit let me microphone question here provocative question yeah and sometimes let's start with computer science we change from the traditional way of developed systems to screen and we don't have any screen leader yeah it's just working in a team yes when we listen to some critics to school the professor used to be the owner of the class yeah don't you think this is kind of trying to broke this ownership to work more in a group yeah going to something more like his cram then that with one person controlling everything it is yeah it's an interesting question and I think we earlier discussed a bit hierarchy and kind of being formal what we observed or we haven't tried this with a lot of different people what I think our theory is that we need to have someone who is in charge the professor who is very open to criticism you cannot have this you know this traditional lecture who is like I am in charge and the way I do it is right so of course you but that I think that's true for every kind of change you need someone who is open enough that there can be someone like a young PhD student that says well I think this is wrong we should maybe do this differently so it I think it requires that if you're really uncomfortable with that as a professor then maybe you should not try that it will not be good yeah absolutely and of course just like with with different trends for example in software development I think it's a balance you might realize that at some point you have gone too far and maybe you need to have some more control what we often said is that you know the professor needs to be open to criticism but also the professor needs to have kind of a script and idea how the lecture will go so that it doesn't just become a strange discussion and nothing else happens but there needs to be some kind of plan okay this is what we'll do this is the examples we will discuss and then you can you can improvise a bit yeah for good for the way of evaluation for the rubric and you present this to the student right away you will be evaluated everyone is according to all the scientists who will be this method of evaluation they have doubts how does this receptivity from this new way of evaluation that although you have automated it is a difficulty for us and many times in a maybe present or without a system resource such as the amount of students are large to extrapolate maybe a little bit the universe of the universe but thinking more about the work of our students especially of the lectures where they will find schools with a reduced number 40 students approximately but with resources or situations a little more differentiated or does not have this tool to unify create this bank of data of evaluation instrument how is that done how do you present this to the student okay there are a little bit of translation I think it's a long one no you're just talking about how you evaluate students yeah and then the main question is how can you do if first if you present the rubrics in first and if you have any kind of agreement with the students and if you don't have lots of resources we do have like a classroom with 40 students for example how do you deal with that yeah so one one thing is these rubrics are open so we always publish them to the students before so they know what they what they are evaluated on and of course that always comes with the risk that they just optimize for exactly what we grade on I think that's what you have to live with that's why we very often we just grade on what we want them to do we don't maybe care so much about all the details of how well they do it regarding the you know scaling or how do we deal with a lot of students I think I would try to at least automate part of these things so as I said earlier for example we use systems where we see every single contribution and I think one way would be to actually automate how much contributions do they need to be and those kind of things that we actually don't have to manually do anything but it could be graded in an automatic way again it's never perfect it's not a great way of grading but that's the trade-off of having lots of students so I think I would really try to automate a large part of the grading and then maybe really have a few things that you really care about but those you can really grade manually you can manage but I haven't tried it so that's good I would have to see maybe we can have an experience together yeah it's the beginning okay then I'll just very quickly jump to the last topic I think and that's fine because that's ongoing work so I can just talk a bit about what we have done um so this is a slightly different angle because it's not about how we teach it's about how we support certain types of students and that's in our case neurodivergent students so students that have conditions like autism spectrum disorder ADHD attention deficit hypers activity disorder or dyslexia for example so issues with usually reading reading comprehension and what I'm doing here is probably not great for them by the way but there we have to start at a lot of work in in how we actually help with our courses and we have done some initial work that is very simple because the main idea is how can we do it without a lot of resources we don't have a lot of support for for these kind of people so it's not like I have five people that can help me with with different things so it's up to me and what I have done in in an initial round is first of all that we have changed the the look the presentation the style of our slides of our assignment texts and material that that we offer and we have done that following a lot of different guidelines that exist for these conditions and it's usually things like you know having a different background white is not fantastic having different fonts different font size more space and and things like that also when it comes to our assignments for example we have really tried to carefully go through them a lot of times and make sure we have them in the right wording it's very clear what you have to do and improve the clarity basically because for example that's something people with ADHD very often struggle with you give them a lot of different instructions and they're just lost where to start this is difficult because it very much clashes with this idea here that you have very open problems so how we cannot be very specific because we want to leave it very open and this is something we try to work with but we don't have a great solution for that right now but we have mainly worked on this level and so far this has been really successful so the students at at Reykjavik University have been quite positive about that we have if in terms of numbers we have about 10% of students that have one of these conditions so it's quite a large number even though the one does not want to stay on here whatever 10% so they were quite positive and now we are working on the next rounds of this so we're trying to look at can we make our organization better how to find materials how to maybe guide people through the different courses so it's really at an initial stage but the focus is very much on how do we do this in a simple way because again we have talked for the different topics we have talked about how do we convince people to do things and of course you can either have a department or a group that really focuses on having this support but that's not what we have so we have to convince individual teachers this is how you can make your class better more accessible more inclusive and this is roughly where we are at the moment but we're looking at different ways how to improve presentation organization and topics like that but it's not you know it's not like we are building amazing tools at the moment it's very basic support and it's a lot of it is also just about awareness making actually making these people more seen that they exist and that the other students also acknowledge that and that the teachers understand that and that's pretty much the level where we are so that's definitely a topic where we can still learn a lot and I think you at Univospi are also doing a lot already in that direction which we are not very good at so on going work any questions on this or on anything I've been talking about or yeah I think what is the question? Lots of questions How about evaluation in these cases if you if you perform perform the same evaluation considering neural diversity yeah also I'd like to know I would like to ask you to tell us a case yeah a difficult case so evaluation first maybe Thank you Currently according to our university rules these students the only official support they get is that they get longer time for the exams so there's kind of a guaranteed time I think is 25% usually that you have more time that's currently what the university does then on the lecture aside we have a lot of flexibility what we can do and I think I would say at the moment we actually don't do a lot so there's not much difference in how we evaluate partially because we're only starting to learn about this and also because it's very difficult of course depending on the condition and the detailed severity of the condition it you know there's a huge difference in how they behave how they perform certain tasks I mean some cases maybe if I do software testing someone with autism might be better so should I evaluate them harder or not so I think we're only just learning these things but we're having a lot of discussions in the context of for example the projects and other kind of skills that that we know are often difficult for for some of these students so for example a lot of people with autism have issues in group work because of communication social skills and there we are we are having really a discussion about should we change the setup for them or not because we know they have difficulties but we also know they'll have to deal with it in the industry later so it's a tricky discussion one I can tell you one case not from us but from another university in Iceland because I've recently talked to a lot of the different study counselors in the universities what they do when they have project courses with autistic students is they still have to do the project but they usually get a smaller setup so instead of being in a group of five six people they get paired up with one other student and then they just work together with them and their experience is that this works extremely well and usually these two form really really strong connections and that's usually one autistic person and one non-autistic person and that seems to work so it's it's a good example maybe of of some kind of middle way but it's something we we keep discussing concrete cases I think in the recent years it's quite difficult because of COVID so I don't have very direct interaction but you know I can tell you about a couple of difficulties that come out maybe one very interesting case that we looked at well we looked at what we did the kind of changes in the slides and so on but we also asked what else can we do we just asked the students and we had one student that said COVID is really nice because I can be at home I can focus on the lectures I can it's silent all is nice and another student said COVID is really difficult for me because when I'm at home my brain tells me I have to relax so I think it's two examples of that show how difficult this is and that show that we will we will probably not find overall solutions that solve all of this but it's more about trying to understand what we need to offer or how flexible we need to be so that's great that's no easy way thank you thank you more questions okay if you want to talk about Portuguese and H
okay you are like a tool of evaluation and the sounds right I wanted to know besides the instruments what exactly you have to do with the process right for example if there is an evaluation about these these abilities of socialization if there are other aspects besides the project right that you have as a criteria in the time of evaluation I think it's important it's asking about if you evaluate or not the social skills when you have the group you have the deliveries and then you have the project itself but how do they do if they are participating the mostly behavior and yeah we evaluate not only the project yeah there goes out no we don't it's soft skills I'm so sorry yeah so there is a soft skills are difficult yeah yeah yeah yeah but even even that I mean even social skills right because you know some people are maybe better than others in communicating is that something we should grade them on or not I think what we try to do so quick answer is we don't evaluate them on the longer answer is we try to support them in in developing that so for instance I mentioned earlier that we do this kind of peer evaluation that the students the students grade each other and they say this student has participated and we don't really we don't really use this to grade we don't say well everyone says you are not working so you fail but when we see that something is going on we see the group says there is a person that does not participate we actually sit down with a group and we discuss these issues and that's also there was one question early of how how we deal with 200 students I think that's the other situation where we actually go into the class and we sit down with the groups and we we do these these kind of things in Sweden where I was before we had in parallel to a lot of the project courses there was a mandatory course where where they were teaching and and learning a lot about social and soft skills so that's another way I think we can do a lot better still in supporting this I'm not sure grading or evaluating is the best way but I think there should be more support at least and that's that's also where we have a long way to go okay that's perfect more questions do you think this could be a friend not to focus on the content but focus in soft skills and yes so I have I haven't mentioned this here but currently I am evaluating one of our bachelor programs and as a part of that I'm interviewing a lot of students and I'm interviewing a lot of companies in Iceland and the trend I see in Iceland and I don't know how that is here but it's I know that it's similar in for example in Sweden is the companies are looking for people that know the basic skills and they know some of you know the principles a bit of the theory and they are really good at working in teams I very rarely hear companies that say we want them to know all these technical different things all the details no they want the basics they want people that are flexible and easy to integrate in the work life so I think it is getting more and more important also of course now we we are discussing a lot things like chat GPT and so on I think the the very technical skills will get less important other things will get a lot more important so I definitely see you see a trend there again I believe in the mix I don't think we should stop completely evaluating some of the more technical deep skills but currently we're maybe too much on the technical side and we need to get a bit more to the non-technical social team side yeah lovely perfect questions no so I would just go import to for a while sure well so we had a little bit to talk about it now with our research and then I'm looking for all the public we have the students from the university professors from the university and the public in general but I want to direct me a little bit to you who is the student from the university to enjoy that we are all here together there is some similarity in which Grisha just said with our integrated project for us it is a very big pleasure to be able to receive a research and we understand right that today at the university we have all the effort to work together with you and I have here the monicagabin that was one of the idealizing of the integrated project so that you understand the fact the importance is first that we have sought in our projects to deliver products to to be able to do our social transformations to be able to bring a movement and you go to practice right monica I think this is the first thing and also the idea and sometimes we hear the student is brave the professor but I want to do my work alone and Grisha just said we have to interact this is one of the biggest abilities that we need and then monica I want to know if it's complete something because I think now it's a very eye on our student student at this time I think it's important to say that our integrated project is using the PBL which is what he just presented to us and we see the whole world then using it which I think this is good to leave here registered for our student that we are using a methodological method that is used in many universities in the world so think that we are going on what is happening to the return of the exact same thing since 2014 we use the methodological activities we use the PBL design thinking in the integrated project so we are using methodologies that are used in the whole world anyway that we were seeing an example but these are methodologies that are being used so the level is so much there in parallel with what is happening in the world I think this is very important for us to register because it is a pinnacle thinking of being a innovative university a university that uses methodological activities that uses technologies to learn and I like it a lot when I listen to some lectures in various places to see that we are on the road and on the right road, right? Perfect, someone who talks more about something, right? I think it's just a matter of fact that I did a set of interviews with a company's rehagard two years ago and what I have more heard from the TIE area that we hired for technical knowledge because it is the easiest to evaluate but we are allowed to save the skills so I think it is important to understand that we need to prepare our students to be not allowed to save the skills yes and I think every time our challenges here because yes the press we are on the other side of the screen right guys we observe you observe you look very affectionate and we understand that that love that I hope but we also do the proposal for you that is to learn to work with that because it's not all day long already there are several examples how many times between us here the university team that we don't listen to we don't disagree we stay brave with another how many times but oh man look and we use we look to use exactly the same strategies understand what is looking for from our professional maturity and there is another point that I just wanted to emphasize that is the work that the university does with accessibility right we have there our teachers who are watching distance also we have a lot of pride of this work that we do not only adapt to the computer but today the special classes the activities individualized mainly for students who have autism and so on but we work with all the needs so it is a pride for us to do that for you ok that is the university level of the point and finally this wonderful team that you are seeing here is that it is built this university a other important point is for you who is a teacher right from the university or not the university because every time we are teachers the future teachers too right what happens everyone asks for us how do you work with projects and I think that it is a good way right, we got the beginning there the lecture this our father's father's congress to go in contact with us the university is always open to show how we work with projects ok so for us a lot of satisfaction and more something we mark just talk here with our future teachers our students are teachers education needs to improve we are seeing here like things we need to take to our classroom this is for the student education in Brazil to improve for the student so we can talk with you to help the student revolution in Brazil I think we have some examples interesting here and I think when Marcus says that too enjoy the little talk now we know the reverence we are new so you who are our future teacher student you participate your entire course of an integrated project you will be going to change right let's do different ok well I think now we are at the moment we are going to say goodbye so first I would like to thank you all the team of the university to see our teachers who are online to this wonderful team that is here we have a mixture here our representative of the university to see the president like the press and the president of the art creation the monica that is the center the Bruno that comes just sometimes when it is more than it is always important to have the regulation and the evaluation anyway all our team the university is also watching and our teacher let's say like that so thank you so much it was really lovely and precious the moment we could interact it was not a lecture because we interacted so it's a pleasure to have you here we hope you have enjoyed your stay at the university thank you so much thank you thank you thank you so so until the break we will see you in the next program as